When you know someone is a SERIOUS AUTOCROSSER

"Wrong Wheel Drive (41%)" (rduncan5678) 03/27/2019 at 13:03 • Filed to: None

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This car looked wicked fast on course, especially for a street class Miata. So I have mad respect for the driver and his autocross skills. But I always find things like this for the purpose of tire warming to be obnoxious. In general, the people running “street” class are definitely some of the most serious competitors out there. I always go to autocross just to have a fun time and improve my skills as a driver. I cant get into the competitive scene solely because the RE-71R is allowed in street class. It prices me out of the activity and makes me completely disinterested. Thankfully, I only care about fun so I am glad to do more events, especially since there are plenty of others who agree with my perspective. But I would enjoy the competition aspect more if the tire situation was better classed. Street class should be limited to all seasons in my opinion. Maybe some 400+ TW summers but to run anything else, you drop into other classes. I always think SCCA truly needs a “rental car” class or “actually street” class. When people trailer in a street car, it ruins the competitive fun to me.

Speaking of rental car class though...

Surprisingly worked better than expected. I didnt really garner many fast times but at least I had fun and made good noises. It understeered a lot but application of the throttle brought the car around nicely. Thankfully there werent any long slaloms on this course so I didnt have major issues keeping decent lines. It took a solid 4 runs before I had the traction control and automatic transmission getting in my way problems sorted but that is par for the course with an unfamiliar car. Once locked into second gear for the whole run with the paddles and every traction nanny turned off and sport mode properly on, the car handled predictably and turned accurately. It took another couple of runs to dial in what was too little or too much throttle. But by my last two runs, I finally felt I could produce fast, clean runs.

I have a whole story regarding “Mopar quality” but I think this picture sums it up nicely:

It was doing this before it was on course so whoever rented this before me has some explaining to do... Or Dodge just builds some real quality vehicles. Either way, not my problem anymore! 

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:12

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Stock classes is where it’s at. It seems any street or modified class is super intense. Stock, it’s a daily drive shoot out.

Tapas > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:14

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Are you sure that was to warm tires?

Maybe the Miata just likes wearing a skirt to fancy outings....

HammerheadFistpunch > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:14

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It doesn’t matter what it is - hot dog eating or formula one - once people get get serious about it it starts to lose a little bit of the fun. I used to play about 3 ultimate frisbee games a week in highschool and I even started a highly attended club, then in college I was on the intramural team and we started running drills and keeping track of stats so we could be competitive and I lost interest . Drag racing feels like the ultimate expression of this concept to me. Its gotta be about the enjoyment of the thing, but then again I’ m just not that competitive .

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 03/27/2019 at 13:17

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Well by “street” I meant stock. Like ES in the case of the Miata. I have heard that both interchangeably been called “E street” or “E stock”. My complaint is specifically about the Street/Stock classes. Especially ES. Since you are allowed a specific suspension modification, a big ass front sway bar, RE71R, and even a roll bar (although that is generally unecessary weight here), it is definitely not stock at all! I wish it were just daily drivers but it generally isnt.

This definitely also varies by region as well.

InFierority Complex > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:18

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Son?

WRXforScience > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:22

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Only passive warmers are allowed (originally people had powered heaters to warm tires), the skirt is to ‘skirt’ the rules and use the heat from the exhaust and/or retain brake heat to warm the tires. At local events, this is overkill and a bit ridiculous .

This might be a little easier/faster than the individual tire blanket/shrouds most people use.

If it fits, I sits.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > HammerheadFistpunch 03/27/2019 at 13:22

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Definitely hear you on that! And specifically for Ultimate frisbee as well. I love playing at a slightly more competitive “summer league” level. But the worst are some pickup groups that take it way too seriously. I expect the over-serious types in leagues, but at least the LA area one I played is well balanced. But the one pickup group I stopped going to due to a few people that really made it unpleasant for me. I recall one time I was just having a bad day on defense and made more mistakes than I should and just getting reamed out by some dude on a power trip on my team and feeling belittled as fuck. I just want to have fun and competition is part of the fun, but it requires a balance to “not be a dick” about it. 

The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:24

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SCCA classing will always confuse me. The group I with the most tire you will ever see in a stock class in a Indy 500 or Sport Comp 2, even though a Re-71R is allowed. Also the classes are so much easier to figure out.  http://www.pitl.ca/classifications.php

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:24

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Eh, a cheap set of wheels and a set of 200TW isn’t a big investment to try to run competitively. The problem with 400TW tires is that I’ve seen numerous situations were the tread blocks are literally shearing off of the tires.

3point8isgreat > Tapas 03/27/2019 at 13:26

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I thought it was some ridiculous aero setup.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:28

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Maybe he didn’t want anyone to copy his suspension setup. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) 03/27/2019 at 13:33

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The problem is that 200TW at one company  another 200TW from a different company. So basically ANY tire other than the RE71R is generally garbage. Just the concept of needing to run separate wheels is what bothers me about the street/stock class. I am fine that it happens but I just want there to be a truly street class where none of that is allowed. If the “base level” class is too expensive to compete in, it seems very silly to me.

Jayhawk Jake > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 03/27/2019 at 13:39

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The Street class is killed by the shock rule. It’s really a stock class, but at some point in the SCCA’s history they realized that shocks wear out so they can be replaced, and now to be truly competitive you have to replace your shocks with high performance ones.

Also regarding classes, I really don’t think SCCA classing is that hard to figure out. People just want an easy button for everything. There’s a one page sheet that helps you identify what modifications put you in what class group , and the ‘letter’ is defined by make and model. This is hardly any more complex than the classing you linked, and finding the ‘letter’ takes 2 seconds to CTRL+F in a PDF.

BeaterGT > HammerheadFistpunch 03/27/2019 at 13:40

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Drag racing is so much fun! $20 for an evening of runs is the best money I have ever spent on driving a car. Sucks that people are “ too cool” for it b ut like you said, once it gets competitive, the fun tank gets drained. Definitely more fun to race with/against guys going for 12/13+ seconds than 10 seconds.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > The Crazy Kanuck; RIP Oppositelock 03/27/2019 at 13:40

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Haha the part about “Any DOT legal tire” allowed in stock class makes it sound even worse! My Toyo RR that I have right now are “DOT legal” but they are 40TW racing tires. 

BeaterGT > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:43

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“ When people trailer in a street car, it ruins the competitive fun to me.”

So much this.  Maybe there needs to be a “driven in” class.

DSM_OR_DIE::Drives_A_Miata > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:49

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My daily drivers all wear ZII Star Specs or ZIIIs. They’re not expensive, the grip is phenomenal, and even though they’re 200TW they last forever. This set on my Miata will be the first that I have ever had to replace. But I guess turbo power and a driving style that is sliding more than anything else will do that...

I agree that dedicated racing tires in a street class is very dumb, but that’s why my one set of tires is my racing rubber. As a bonus, the extra grip makes me safer in the bizarre Indiana traffic.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:57

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This x1000. I competed at a nationals event last year and it completely turned me off of autocrossing competitively. About half of the guys in my class (STX) had this BS going on to keep their tire temps up. Guys were constantly yelling at their co-drivers because the car wasn’t set up properly, yada yada yada.

Most of the nationals level guys think that this is their shot at F1 or something when in reality they’re still just driving fast around a parking lot...

I still love autocrossing and the competitive nature in regional seasons/events but I’ll be very reluctant to go back to nationals.

As for the tires I think its about as fair as it can be. A set of Re71Rs should be able to make it through tw o full autocross seasons if you’re able to only use them at events which is a lot better than the R Comps you used to be able to run.

As for classing the SCCA has always been way off and really only focuses on making new cars competitive, completely ignori ng popular/older cars like NAs/NBs, E36s, etc.

Cash Rewards > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 13:57

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When I first started autocrossing in 2006 the “street” classes were called “stock” (g stock, e stock, etc). They were a little more restrictive, cat back exhaust and one  sway bar only, stock wheel size only, but the kicker was any street legal tire. Well, dot defines street legal as two circumferential grooves. That's it. So Hoosier trotted out r compound race slicks with two tiny ass grooves, making it "street legal" and eligible for stock class. They cost a fortune, wore insanely fast, and it was essentially impossible to beat a car on r compound slicks if you didn't have any. So I hear what you're saying, but it used to be much much worse. 200tw is a compromise and an improvement. Yeah, re71s are good, but they're comparatively affordable compared to Hoosiers. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Cash Rewards 03/27/2019 at 14:00

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Very true to put this in perspective! I have found that r-comps are actually more affordable since people sell them used. But yeah I could see how it was definitely worse before. 

LimitedTimeOnly @ opposite-lock.com > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 14:01

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You could view it as evening the playing field - if almost everyone goes to 200 TW from one or two suppliers (RE71 R and Rival S 1.5). And if a participant is g oing to more than two events , typical all-season tires will get chewed up quickly (depending on the surface and driving style) and that participant will be dealing with the cost and hassle of replacing them anyway.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Trunk Impaired 318 03/27/2019 at 14:05

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Local regions are the only reason why I still do autocross when I can. I have had soooo much fun running with the right groups. Especially since some of the smaller regions in bumfuck nowhere also have great venues since there is plenty of space. I love the larger courses with airport runways and 60+ second fastest times. But the longer courses are also why I have just gotten into track days instead. I enjoy spending 20 minutes driving and then doing it again 3 or 4 times. Getting 20 minutes total for a whole season in one region is much more depressing. Suplementing with going to a dozen different regions helps but is a lot of travel and adds up in cost quickly. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > DSM_OR_DIE::Drives_A_Miata 03/27/2019 at 14:08

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I love the ZII, it has done great for me on my Miata on the track. They made it through 5 track days before I got a nail in one. The tires are pretty much toast anyways but still surely had the remainder of that track day of life left in them. But yeah it would not do particularly well at autocross and is definitely more suited for canyon runs and the track.

I have mismatched bald 200TW tires on the Miata right now but thats fine since it doesnt run right anyways lol. And my set of 40TW Toyo RR in storage will be fun whenever I get a working car again..

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > BeaterGT 03/27/2019 at 14:10

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I get why people do it. If you have a trailer, its easier than swapping wheels at the course since you can do it the night before at home. And then not bother doing anything at the end of the day. Plus if anything breaks, you can still get home without calling a tow and such. Buuuuut, that should only apply to track days!! The whole point of autocross is that its NOT a track day.

Ideally “driven in” would also mean no wheel swapping allowed. I mean you cant enforce people from not doing it down the street and then driving up. But the spirit of it at least is what I had in mind. 

Bman76 (hates WS6 hoods, is on his phone and has 4 burners now) > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 14:12

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As LTO said, AutoX will chew up “ street” tires as badly as (if not worse than) an RE71R. At the end of the day it’s motorsport, and those are the best compromise of street-able tire and performance. Nobody wants to compete in a class where they can’t do basic things to make their cars slightly better. A set of cheap Falken Azenis RT625K+ would get you into the ballpark, and honestly it comes down to driver skill long before that.

I look at it like any other sport. I can’t just walk in and expect to be hyper competitive out of the box. 75% is driver skill/practice , 25% is the car.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 14:27

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I’ve been holding off on jumping into track days just because where I am now, there’s no good tracks, especially when I literally grew up on Watkins Glen. Plus my region has a pretty good lot where runs are a minimum of 45 seconds and can go upwards of 70 seconds, typically with 8-10 runs each day.

Once I move back to civilization with a nice track I have a feeling that autocross is just going to become a novelty. 

Cash Rewards > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 14:27

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The rule of thumb was 2 seconds faster over a 60 second course with slicks, and the times backed that up. It was bad.

But I understand what you are saying. I had to replace my rear sway bar along with the front, so now I should be in str in my 01 Miata. I will get crushed. But that was the plan anyway next year when I redo my suspension. I’m not going to put Koni yellows without replacing springs with 170k on them, and I’m not buying OEM springs when fm springs are better and cheaper. So I’m fucked either way. Just gotta have fun

Cash Rewards > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 14:36

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The re71 is also bullshit, from what I understand. It was a 160 or so until scca announced the 200 limit, then the tire was "redone" to meet the new standard. No it wasn't, it was just relabeled. It's not a true 200tw tire. Or that's the rumor

maceprimus > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 14:38

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I fully agree with you. I'm forced to buy expensive nearly-race compound tires for street class that will only last a year. There should be an all-season class, but in reality that's the novice class. Miatas with re71r are very fast and sometimes have times way above their classes, without tires they're nothing. 

Full of the sound of the Gran Fury, signifying nothing. > BeaterGT 03/27/2019 at 14:43

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When I was a member of the BMWCCA, the first half of the day was only for BMWs, but the second half was open to any member in any car. What I learned was that there were people that joined the club only for that track time and didn’t necessarily own a car made by the marque in question.

I remember one guy with a highly-modified C4 Corvette convertible, not street legal, that was trailered in for events. Invariably he would set the fastest times, but it left me rather disappointed as I was there to watch BMWs, like my own, not what was essentially a single-purpose race car. Not that I expected to win any category in my E21, but I was there to hang out and talk to my fellow BMW owners, not some hard-core non-BMW driving dude that paid a few bucks to our club  for his track time.

burglar can't heart click anything > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 14:55

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Part of things is that we have to write rules that work for both locals and the super serious people that go to Lincoln in September. It’s not easy to balance.

One thing that’s true though is that each region is free to tweak the rules to suit their membership. So if you think there’d be support for a 300tw class, or a daily beater class, ask if your club will create and offer one. If the rules were just “any car on 300tw minimum” it would weed out all of the super srsbzns cone nerds.

As noted elsewhere, back when it was called “Stock” you had to have Hoosier race tires. They could not be driven on the street, and they were really expensive on a per-run basis on most cars. The move to “Street” / 200tw was in response to that. The RE71R / Rival S do push the limits, but they are streetable (I’ve DD’d on my competition tires for years .) Please note we aware of the concerns and are monitoring new tires closely (see the upcoming Yoko A052.)

C onsider the Hankook RS-4, Falken RT615K+, or Dunlop ZIII if you’re willing to give up just a shade of ultimate grip for a little longer lasting tire. I think you’d be happier with those than a 400tw all season, there’s a chance one of those chunks and falls apart before your eyes.

Finally, keep in mind when we tweak the rules, our goal is to make the sport easy, accessible , and fun for as many people as possible. We don’t get everything right all the time, but we are trying.  Can’t do anything about the people that take it too seriously, though, sorry.

burglar can't heart click anything > Cash Rewards 03/27/2019 at 15:09

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Not true, the RE71R has been 200tw since day 1.

Y ou are allowed to market a tire lower than what it tests, but not higher.  So if your tire tests at 450tw, you can still market it as a 180tw because people think lower treadwear = faster.  But if your tire tests out at 190tw, you can not call it a 200tw.

burglar can't heart click anything > Jayhawk Jake 03/27/2019 at 15:11

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You don’t HAVE to chage shocks, plenty of national championships have been won on OEM shocks.  Especially the last 4-5 years, OE shocks have gotten really good on a lot of cars.

Stang70Fastback > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 15:15

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When people trailer in a street car, it ruins the competitive fun to me.

What about if I trailer with my street car? Does that still ruin it? I run STX, but have no inclination to DD on RE71Rs.

Cash Rewards > burglar can't heart click anything 03/27/2019 at 15:17

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As I said, it was a rumor I heard. If you know for fact it’s untrue, I believe you

burglar can't heart click anything > Cash Rewards 03/27/2019 at 15:22

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IIRC the Toyo and the Hankook RS3 magically changed from 180tw to 200tw the day the rule was changed, so you were close on that part.  But point is both of those tires were at least 200tw all along, the 180tw part was just marketing.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 15:33

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I used to dd a 200tw tire. RS3's, when I was autocrossing the Mustang. So much fun on the street. I would get two years out of them. Swap the outer shoulder and a winter set. It’s possible.

Future next gen S2000 owner > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 15:36

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I remember my first event. I picked out a bunch of cars and thought, oh I’ll beat them. Then proceeded to get my ass kicked by all of them. Best is when you beat the pants off better/faster cars in raw time because the person can’t drive.

loki03xlh > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 15:56

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What if an a utocross day is a track day? Locally, half the autocross events are ran on an actual road course race track.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > loki03xlh 03/27/2019 at 16:12

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Well those are the best kind! I did one autocross with PCA at Pocono Raceway. They were just using one of the smaller courses at the track with a few cones in place. There was a fourth gear section in my Miata! That is what I wish all autocross was but then again it would be too similar to the track so its nice to have both. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Future next gen S2000 owner 03/27/2019 at 16:13

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Well yeah its fun embarrasing high horsepower things in a Miata. Generally because horsepower doesnt help a whole lot for autox anyways. Ive never felt like I needed more power, just more grip!

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Stang70Fastback 03/27/2019 at 16:16

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Yeah I think its perfectly fine in Street Touring and beyond. I think that’s where all of the tire trailer stuff should go. My only complaint is the street/stock class, especially the slower car ones; DS, ES, FS, GS, HS. GS and HS usually just have people with dailies and applies to most rental cars. Which is why those can be the most enjoyable sometimes. 

Stang70Fastback > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 16:32

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Fair enough. The trouble is just that RE71Rs ARE a street tire, but they are also not a great tire to daily drive on. So if you want to be competitive, you basically need those tires, but you don’t necessarily want to commute on them. They could ban them from the stock class, but they are technically a street tire, so that opens up a whole new question of where/how you draw the line. I’m not really sure there’s a better solution. I mean, if you banned people from trailering their cars to events in those classes, you’d just wind up with people trailering them to the lot across the street, and then driving the last 100 feet to the event, most likely, lol.

loki03xlh > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 16:49

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After reading this article, I googled autocross near me. I was pleasantly surprised that half the local ones are at the Circuit of St. Louis at Gateway Motor sports park. I’ m sign ing up. It will interesting to see how I do with a 30 year old pony car!

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Stang70Fastback 03/27/2019 at 16:56

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Yeah, I guess it’s less about the rules and more about how people interpret them. That’s why I think it would be best to leave everything the way it was and then just add a class for “rental cars” or call it the “daily driver” class. And the idea would be for it to be competitive but without spending anything on mods. The problem also though is there are already too many classes to cater to everyone. So its more of an empty complaint and I might as well just stick to track days and not worry about it anymore. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > loki03xlh 03/27/2019 at 16:58

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Oh it will surely be fun no matter what! As much as I want to complain about nitpicky issues, I still love being on course driving fast. And hanging out with a crowd of car people is always fun. Enjoy!!

Stang70Fastback > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 17:04

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The way I see it, if you’re there just to have fun, then what does it matter if a few guys in your class are running the sticky tires, and posting faster times. You’re there just for the Lulz! If you do decide to become competitive, then you just gotta deal with being competitive! To be fair, the mods allowed in the basic street class ARE indeed pretty limited. A swaybar, tires, etc... all stuff that most enthusiasts wind up doing to their daily drivers anyway. The tires are really the main sticking point (pun intended) and really the only mod in street class that will make or break your competitiveness IMHO (aside from the all-important driver mod!), but if you want to compete, then just save up for a second set of wheels and tires, and toss those on for the events! It only takes 20 minutes to swap wheels! Yes, it’s an added expense, but in the grand scheme of hobbies, dropping a few hundred bucks on tires once every year or two isn’t all that bad :)

E92M3 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 17:36

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How does that keep his tires warm, he’s r eflecting the sun away/shading the tires ? Unless he’s keeping a breeze off them, I don’t get it?

DanTheMan > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 18:34

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I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, scca classing is garbage. The rule makers change all sorts of things so a car gets buried. Remember the 370z and how it was a great CS car? Why would they move that car to BS? It makes no sense for it to be competing against an s2000 when it’s far more comparable to the miata and ft86 twins, due to its weight. They decided to move it out of CS and in to BS just because all of the ft86 and miata people were butthurt and had sway with the national crew.

Look at what NASA does for their classing, it makes so much more sense. You have a worksheet based on power, mods, type of tire, etc and you end up with cars that are usually pretty directly competitive.

I left autocross and went to NASA/TT because I rather spend my time driving, being competitive, and having fun than saving every penny to trade and buy a different car every few years to cheat a rule and stay competitive (the camaro 2.0 is a perfect example of a car that tops its class just because of stupid ruling).

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > DanTheMan 03/27/2019 at 18:56

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Yup, ive done a NASA event before. I much preferred that setup. But SCCA events are far more common. Or even if its not an SCCA event, its usually run with SCCA rules. 

Krautastic > DanTheMan 03/27/2019 at 20:47

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This is why I do SCCA rallycross. 3 levels of preparation distinguished by drivetrain. I'm in mod rear which means pretty much do whatever you want as long as it stays rear wheel drive. Also, I'm also Dan! Keep it classy dantheman 

Mightymango > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/27/2019 at 21:02

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Re71s or the Rival S tires are both "the" tires to have but depending on size they really aren't that spendy some of the commonly used tire sizes. If you want to be close though the tires for Falken (the same tire that is used in the Solo Sport coupe class) or an offering from Nexen will same you some coin.  But in the end yes street class is competitive and those that want to be the fastest will always choose the fast tire. You can still have a ball with tires that aren't fast. Also for extra information street class used to be called stock and Hoosiers were an allowed tires and the tire to have in stock,  they are even more expensive that the Re71/Rivals. 

Connor C. > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 04:57

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Well, see.. h ere is where I’d like to mention that I deliver pizza on cheap 300 treadwear summer tires and I’d find it pretty ridiculous if I had to buy significantly worse tires than factory equipment just to run street class. Plus, I cant afford to tear up my daily tires, I would like them to last 30k miles (about 1 year).

A new set of daily tires would cost me around $500 for cheap stuff. A good bit of craigsli st crawling and ebay shopping got me full set of wheels AND new 200 treadwear autocross   tires fo r $700! Plus, they save me from destroying my daily tires in 3 months like I did my first set .. .  

The tires I use arent t he FASTEST 200 treadwear tire, but they are enough for me to h ave won my class reg ionally l ast year, even though I was driving a car that was set up for BS and competing in CAM-S... a cheap old h igh mileage C 5 z51 Corvette. (I get 23-25 mpg doing pizza delivery with it if you’re curious.)

But I also try pretty hard, I spent a lot of time finding a setup that would be legal in BS but gets me the most grip and best balance I can without eating my tires alive . I spend most of what little extra income I make on repairs and parts for my car and do all the work myself on the side of the road by the house since I dont have a garage . I come home from work at 11pm or later the day before an event, stay up to wash my certainly dirty car after a day delivering pizza, then spend the time to swap over to my autocross wheels/tires before packing and getting usually around 3hrs of sleep. Then the 1 - 2.5hr drive to the event. And yet, I still manage to do well in my cheap 20 year old, 213k mile pizza delivery Chevy. ( And somehow, h ave fun at the same time!) Maybe my idea of fun is a bit weird :P

Could I go faster with a $1500 set of 285/ 30 5 BFG Rival S? Certainly. But for $100 a tire I can go 85 -90 % as fast... and still be in with a shout regionally, so long as I put in work. :)

landstuhltaylor > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 07:46

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I hate it when I get sucked in to reading articles written by people who suck at autocross making excuses for why they suck at autocross and then blaming other people for sucking at autocross.

landstuhltaylor > Cash Rewards 03/28/2019 at 08:37

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Wherever you are getting your information from is bullshit

jeremiahishere > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 08:55

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I run Rivals on my autocross car, mostly because they are the only tires that fit. A set costs ~$1200. After about 8 months of events with two drivers at every event, they are down to their wear bars.

I live in a part of the country with afternoon thunderstorms. When the Rivals I run get down to the wear bars, they are pretty scary in rain and standing water. They still have 5-8 events of life in them but I can’t count on them to get me home.

The tire trailer cost $400. A set of Rivals for my car costs ~$1200. 5-8 events is about 4 months of autocross for me. I am on my third set of rivals. When this set is worn out, I will have gotten an extra year of extra use out of the tires.

I have saved $800 over three years by towing a trailer. When you consider the long trips I have taken with tires on the trailer, including a multiple 10 hours drives and a 40 hour drive last year, the savings are much higher.

Sorry for ruining your fun.

Miata. Cos HP is cheating. > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 09:44

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I find it more obnoxious when people “Just for the fun yo! It’s dodging cones lol!” bitch about people who want to be competitive being competitive.

The picture you have there represents about 15mins of work and, I dunno $50 of materials? It’s not exactly try hard stuff. And don’t drag the rest of us down to your level on crappy 400tw tires that are no fun to drive on because you don’t even want to buy a set of tires for the year.

ateamfan42 > Trunk Impaired 318 03/28/2019 at 09:48

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As for classing the SCCA has always been way off and really only focuses on making new cars competitive, completely ignoring popular/older cars like NAs/NBs, E36s, etc.

Truth there.   My NB was already outclassed in STR, which includes the S2000 (that’s a weapons-grade Miata).  Now the ND is in STR, and I fully expect the ND2 (2019+) will go in STR too.  We need a “super” STR class for these newer fast roadsters.

ateamfan42 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 09:52

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The problem is that 200TW at one company  another 200TW from a different company.

Right. There is no standard for treadwear. It is like shoe size or women’s clothing sizes.... every manufacturer has their own idea of what a given number means. Treadwear is only really comparative within the same manufacturer: a 400 TW tire *should* last twice as long as a 200 TW from the same company.

Perhaps we should petition NIST to develop a treadwear standard ;)

ateamfan42 > Cash Rewards 03/28/2019 at 09:53

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It was a 160 or so until scca announced the 200 limit, then the tire was “redone” to meet the new standard. No it wasn’t, it was just relabeled. It’s not a true 200tw tire. Or that’s the rumor

I’d say it was probably a 140 :-P

It would be pretty funny if the “redesign” consisted of nothing but changing the molds to stamp “200" in the sidewall.

ateamfan42 > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 09:58

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Haha the part about “Any DOT legal tire” allowed in stock class makes it sound even worse! My Toyo RR that I have right now are “DOT legal” but they are 40TW racing tires.

I remember back when the classes were “stock” and that was the rule! Only Street Touring required an actual “street” tire.

With the development of modern street tires that grip almost as well as old R-comps, the move to 200 TW street and ST sort of made sense. But those seeking the best edge are going to gravitate to the “cheater” tires like the RE-71.

Cash Rewards > landstuhltaylor 03/28/2019 at 10:43

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Im not sure you understand how this forum works, but this here ain’t it.

Pax Rolfe > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 11:19

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Wow! Does this mean I’m famous? JK- As the owner of the pictured Miata and 30 years off and on in autocross, here are my thoughts having skimmed the conversation.

Anyone who isn’t taking every little advantage they can, isn’t interested in winning. And there’s nothing wrong with that, come have fun, burn some rubber and enjoy like minded people. That’s not me though.

I love the new street tires, much better than the old “Stock” class days. Now I can actually drive to events on the tires I compete on. Couldn’t do that with the old Hoosiers and even then they only were really competitive for 10-20 runs. I got near 200 out my my BFG’s last season. Any tire likes heat though, I’d do the same wrap with 400TW as I did with those 200TW Bridgestones. I go to National level events where you only get three runs. This trick helps to not make the first one a throw away just to get heat in the tires.

As for classing, every car can’t be THE car. Looking at national results some classes have more variety in their winners than others. And a really good driver will win in whatever you put under them. At the last Charlotte Champ Tour, Tom O’Gorman beat the CS field of ND2 Miatas with an 08 RX-8. Sometimes it’s just, one guy won so everyone else copies his setup. W e have to wait for someone to put the effort into doing something different and proving it can win. I’ve seen it done many times. Look at the Honda Accord that took second at Nationals in HS last year—complete surprise.

Anyway, thank you for the kind words on my driving, and if anyone sees the Grape Ape at an event and wants a ride, the seat is there for the asking.

Pax Rolfe > davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com 03/28/2019 at 12:30

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Bring a jack and stands, anyone’s welcome to peek under my skirt :)

Pax Rolfe > E92M3 03/28/2019 at 12:46

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Keeps the heat from the engine and exhaust under the car and heats the tires.

Pax Rolfe > WRXforScience 03/28/2019 at 12:55

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Agreed, I didn’t do any tire warming last season. This was a dry run for the National event this weekend.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Pax Rolfe 03/28/2019 at 13:35

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Haha small world, wouldn't have guessed you would find this thread. I always enjoy seeing a Miata In ES being driven well. It's impressive and is one of the reasons why I bought a Miata to begin with. I definitely get why at the National level all of this stuff makes sense. I just usually end up forgetting the national level even exists. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Miata. Cos HP is cheating. 03/28/2019 at 13:39

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Oh yeah I’d never seriously complain about. Ragging on them for sure, but I get why both groups exist. It's why I love autocross still, seeing both is fun to me. Until the "non serious" folks drive off course/unsafely, hit cones, or do donuts on course. And the serious folks, as long as they aren't yelling about rules or getting mad at people for having a good time, are cool by me. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > landstuhltaylor 03/28/2019 at 13:42

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You know you don't have to read my shit lol. I'm sorry to have offended you though, I was just having a discussion and poking a little fun. Clearly it sparked a good amount of attention which means it was worth talking about. 

WRXforScience > Pax Rolfe 03/28/2019 at 13:45

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That’s normally the only time I see tire warmers locally, it makes sense to practice under as similar conditions as possible for the National events.

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Pax Rolfe 03/28/2019 at 13:57

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Nice. Join us!

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/join-oppo-the-blog-for-car-goobers-1833132611

davesaddiction @ opposite-lock.com > Pax Rolfe 03/28/2019 at 14:02

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Drive to track is the only way I’d do it, too. Trailering just adds a huge new level of complexity and cost. My high-mile, rock-chipped E90 M3 is really too heavy for autox, but I’ve enjoyed many track days in my 7 years with my car. Looking forward to the next one, and always considering what my next fun/track car might be (with the understanding that it must be able to take me 4+ hours to sample the variety of tracks and back roads in my area.

I’ll probably never be the fastest on track , but I might be the one having the best time!

Cash Rewards > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 14:47

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But they were sucked in! Sucked in! 

Pax Rolfe > landstuhltaylor 03/28/2019 at 15:11

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He’s not wrong, it is obnoxious and maybe next year they’ll change the rules and I can get a few extra BTUs out of my hot water heater. I didn't read it as him bitching about losing so much as pointing out that you can just come and have fun.

Party-vi > landstuhltaylor 03/28/2019 at 15:27

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Hi! I can understand that because you’re not an author here you haven’t ready the Handbook for Commenting. Here’s a handy link to get you started . This comment isn’t really being excellent to OP, is it? If you would like to continue commenting in Oppositelock just take a moment to make sure you’re being excellent to the other members of this community.

Trunk Impaired 318 > ateamfan42 03/28/2019 at 15:59

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Yep, I really wish I wasn’t lumped into STR with the NDs and S2000s, especially since my car ISN’ T A ROADSTER. The SCCA in their infinite wisdom placed the E36 M3 in STR last year and are keeping it there....

Claff > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 16:10

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What you said in the article and what you said in this comment are kinda opposing thoughts.

Claff > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 16:16

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My trailered car gets beat regularly by cars that are driven to events. I don’t see why you’d want to separate them based on how they got to the site. They’re the same car once they’re in grid next to each other, I just have a more comfortable ride home after competition.

IDriveMyCarToAutoX > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 16:49

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As someone who has raced AutoX for several years in street class cars, I don’t think I’ve seen anyone trailer a street class car to AutoX. I have always DDed and driven my to the course, raced, and driven home.

RE71Rs are more than the crappiest $60 all-seasons money can buy , yes, but they are not hugely expensive (For my MR2 they cost about $105 /tire during the President’s Day sale last year. I just checked TireRack and they are $130/ea full price ).

AutoX is one of the cheapest autosports to get into. You can race a full season of AutoX for under $1,000 per season, easily. This includes everything but the vehicle: Season registration for every event, tires, and other wearables. Hell, even a Snell helmet won’t cost that much if it’s your first season.

Totally understandable that you may not have $500 to spend on tires, but if you actually want to race, and you have enough expendable income to be considering this kind of sport anyway, you should be able to afford a set of tires once in a while.

If you’ve got a car with bigger, wider wheels, you will have to spend more on tires, but most of the good street class cars are well within the 15-17" range for wheels.

Totally cool if AutoX isn’t for you, but don’t make it seem like this is a huge investment. It’s jus t not.

Claff > Trunk Impaired 318 03/28/2019 at 16:51

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“Most of the nationals level guys think that this is their shot at F1 or something when in reality they’re still just driving fast around a parking lot... ”

I’ve run eight national events each of the last eight or nine years  and I can’t think of seeing anyone exhibiting this behavior.

IDriveMyCarToAutoX > Party-vi 03/28/2019 at 16:52

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@Party-vi
Are authors held to these rules too? The author seems to know very little about AutoX and seems to be kind of crapping all over autocrossers. That’s not being very excellent, in my opinion... W ouldn’t you agree?

Party-vi > IDriveMyCarToAutoX 03/28/2019 at 17:02

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“So I have mad respect for the driver and his autocross skills.”

^ Sounds pretty excellent to me. Authors are allowed to have opinions. It also sounds like they are an active autocross participant and have firsthand experience in the sport, and I can’t find one instance where OP is shitting all over autocrossers.

I would agree if your opinion matched mine, but it does not, which is fine.

Cash Rewards > Party-vi 03/28/2019 at 18:55

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How the fuck did we get here?

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Claff 03/28/2019 at 21:11

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Well I’ve heard enough of the discussion to form a better, more rounded opinion. It’s why I enjoy this community, t o get the different view points.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Party-vi 03/28/2019 at 21:16

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I would agree that I was attempting to shit on autocross, but in a tongue in cheek kind of way. It's a "loving hate" of something that I spend a lot of time doing. And yeah my opinion was one sided but that's why I enjoyed seeing the dichotomy of people agreeing and disagreeing to help me form a better opinion. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Claff 03/28/2019 at 21:18

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In practice the idea would never work. It's in theory that I like the concept but can't find a reasonable way to implement it. It's why I enjoy there being other classes for me to have fun with instead. Local regions always have specific classes that people don't "go crazy" with building to spec and competition is a little more light hearted. I perfectly understand the trailering aspect and it deserves a place. I would even consider doing it if I had the means. 

Pax Rolfe > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 21:22

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For the record, the guy in the cammo jacket is not me. That’s the Ukrainian I hired to make sure no one messed with the car or looked under the skirt.

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > IDriveMyCarToAutoX 03/28/2019 at 21:22

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Oh autocross is definitely for me. I just run in CSP with cheap sub 100TW and have a blast with no chance of winning, but just the goal of improvement every event. My point about trailering Street Class cars is definitely something I’ve seen, especially from regions that see people who go to nationals. Those guys are generally very talented and dedicated so I still respect them. But it just makes me chuckle at the thought of that being “Street class” somehow.

I prefer track days now solely because of the cost per seat hour since that is my primary concern. But I still have a place in my heart for autocross and want to keep attending events when convenient. 

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Pax Rolfe 03/28/2019 at 21:24

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Haha yeah I know

Miata. Cos HP is cheating. > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/28/2019 at 22:04

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I think if you genuinely want to do better, even with budget stipulations, it would be best to engage with and talk to the people you’re poking fun at for being “SERIOUS AUTOCROSSERS!”.

Everyone in the community that I know of would fall over themselves to help you if you made a comment to them during marshaling along the lines of “Ugh... I’m frustrated. I really can’t get close to the guys on RE71Rs, but I don’t want to run a tire I can’t DD on. Any ideas that would help?”

Your way seems to be “Ugh. The rules suck that they’re not based on the tires I want to run. The only reason I’m not competitive with you is because I won’t buy RE71Rs. They really need to sort of the rules. Oh yeah and I’m just here for the fun too. ”

It seems like a kind of excuse safety net to me. I run RE71s and I haven’t won any notable events beyond a few locals. My conclusion is I’m not driving at a high enough level and need to improve. Are you being that honest with yourself?

Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) > Miata. Cos HP is cheating. 03/29/2019 at 00:16

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Oh I’m only complaining because this is an online forum. I’m always talking to people at events and bettering myself because of it. Those are my favorite people to seek out and ask for tips every time. It’s not like I want to run stock class anyways, I wouldn’t build to a specific class either way. I’m well aware that driver mods are everything, I’ve seen how much better I get just by going to more events. More importantly it’s consistency. I’ve gotten to the point where my best run is the first or second if I’m used to my setup and got plenty of course walks. I have learned so so much just by asking that exact question of “how can I do better”. I love getting ride alongs with experienced people and learning from it. It’s the one reason I do still appreciate autocross, it’s a much better learning environment than on the track (aside from paying for a dedicated instructor) 

Future Heap Owner > DSM_OR_DIE::Drives_A_Miata 03/29/2019 at 02:59

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This set on my Miata will be the first that I have ever had to replace.

Based on your recent posts, I think that’s the same thing as saying “these tires last longer than 6 months” 

ateamfan42 > Trunk Impaired 318 03/29/2019 at 08:15

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That for sure is a weird one.  Seems to me the M3 would make more sense in STX or STU.

Party-vi > Cash Rewards 03/29/2019 at 08:28

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Shit man I wish I knew

Party-vi > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/29/2019 at 08:30

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This isn’t about your post (which is perfectly fine) - it’s about shitbirds coming in here off the street to leave unwarranted opinions strewn about the place.

Cash Rewards > Party-vi 03/29/2019 at 09:28

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I gotta say, I’m impressed with how you handled it. Mods aren’t always appreciated , but if that we’re me I would have sent the same message that you did except the link would have been goatse instead of our handbook.

That said, you might get more and more of this. I find Google suggesting opponent me now.

DSM_OR_DIE::Drives_A_Miata > Future Heap Owner 03/29/2019 at 10:45

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Shhh. It sounds better when I say it my way.

Miata. Cos HP is cheating. > Wrong Wheel Drive (41%) 03/29/2019 at 13:19

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Ah I get it. This is just your online personality making fun of that person.

Love people like you.

Trunk Impaired 318 > ateamfan42 03/29/2019 at 14:37

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STX would be the most appropriate. It’s not quite a good as the Toyobaru twins but with the right set up and driver it could give them a good fight - exactly why it isn’t in STX.

It used to be i n STU and a few years back one hero actually won nationals with one but it’s completely outgunned currently.

Trunk Impaired 318 > Claff 03/29/2019 at 14:40

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Maybe just a poor culmination of class and geographical differences but there were definitely a ton of guys who took it way too seriously. I’m all for being competitive but the level that it was taken t o made the whole experience miserable - and that was just being around them.